If I can stretch the metaphor further churches planting churches can come with the fear of loosing the warmth, but maybe it’s realizing the blanket is longer than we thought. Like a knitting a blanket maybe it means more rows are added.
I like the ‘stretch’! I think in my mind we feel we ‘lose’ something when we move in a certain direction. We want a false dichotomy where to move in a certain direction inevitably moves away from another. Yet, for example, in church planting, this requires MORE of a dependence on theology and ecclesiology, rather than simply being a move towards mission.
The denomination I am apart of is wrestling through both of these especially when communicating theology and ecclesiology in the positive. I think the wrestling is actually bringing us closer together because we want to value these things well.
Yeah, I think due to these 3 being treated as individual pursuits, we will want to move the others towards it's direction. For example, we want our church plants to be the fullest sense of realised ecclesiology almost from the get go. But it's our theology that guides that.
Well, your perspective validates my experience. Serving among Christians I have seen that blanket you wrote about and seen it yanked in different directions. It’s tough to find one church that balances all three of those categories in their congregation and even more difficult to find multiple churches that want to work with other churches. I think part of the responsibility of leaders is to disciple the next generation in all three: ecclesiology, missiology, and theology. So I loved what you said. It needs to be said.
I’m not entirely sure your “blanket” of missiology, theology, and ecclesiology is more accurate or less than the framework I was taught though, so I was sort of investigating your terms and weighing them a bit. I tend to connect terms with roles or identities or giftings.
I tend to use the five fold terminology of missionary/pastor/teacher/evangelist/prophet to understand and make sense of conflict in the groups I’m in. So the “blanket” (in my head) that represents the church has five corners? If that makes sense? But then I wondered if there were -ology - endings for those corners.
I believe missionaries are gifted to see frameworks and metaphors like the “blanket” you explained. You're probably missionary gifted by God and connect to missionary stories more than anything else. They help you make sense of the world and hear God’s voice clearly. Missiology = missionary so that fits.
I believe teachers are defenders of wisdom and carriers of it so your -ology word Theology fits my framework too. I can lay them side by side and they match up. Theology = Teachers in my metaphor.
it’s actually not my metaphor. It’s charismatic/Pentecostal but they’re never good at pinning things down. They’re a missiology heavy denomination so they don't like clarifying stuff. i feel like I have to study from multiple branches and denominations to get a handle on things.
Anyway, people w/ the Pastor gifting are like the big warm belly or guts of the Church. They keep everyone fed and energized with their love. Good shepherds protect the flock. And I think that calling lines up perfectly with your metaphor too! Ecclesiology = Pastors.
But now i’m left with Prophets (or ppl spectacularly gifted to discern) and Evangelists.
The thing is I love charismatics ok? The five fold metaphor is a source of recurring interest to me, but it’s also like a puzzle. I don’t want to force it on a situation. It might not be just right. But I love it and I enjoy considering it.
You got me thinking about -ology again. In this case I started thinking about hamartiology and apologetics. Good well-balanced prophetically gifted people notice when the Body of Christ is not seeing something important. They “see” for the Body and for strangers. They warn and have a particular sense of enjoyment when they can point out problems ahead of time. Immature prophets are contentious, but mature ones are SO helpful cuz they notice povs that others might miss. So i’m wondering if their -ology could be hamartiology.
Meanwhile, evangelists do NOT activate leaders or teach people Greek. Evangelists don’t spend time shepherding or laying a feast either. They don't visit the sick Christians or the dying Christians like pastors do. Evangelists are like bards. They tell stories to people who aren’t members of the Church at all. They’re sort of like a redeemed Pied Piper. They head toward the feast and say, “Come along! I know where more food is!” but they also have to act as medics who attend to the wounded. They have to share the gospel in a way that meets the needs of outsiders and then connect those people to the Church. So maybe Apologetics = Evangelist?? I’m not sure. I might be stretching the metaphor
Oof. You’re probably regretting asking me to share. I suppose I ought to have just replied by quoting a few sentences you wrote and then said how lovely they were. I loved your metaphor. I love to meet ppl who are working (late!) on how to understand and how to pray for what the Body of Christ needs. It’s refreshing to hear that the Spirit of God is revealing truth to many people. May He bless Ireland through your prayers more and more! (Please pray for Spain too. 🥹)
I love this comment! I'm definitely not regretting your reply! ¡Claro que sí, estaré orando por España! Vivimos en México durante dos años y medio, así que será una buena oportunidad para volver a practicar mi español.
I think you've touched on something I'm really passionate about, the 5 fold model for gifts Christ gave to the church. I think if a church is seeing these 'impulses' in the body of a local church, and the unity of the Spirit is at work, then the closeness of the people means that warmth is expected under the blanket.
You're right in that the challenge comes when our 'tribes' tend to focus on certain elements, traits, models or gifts. I think we have done well in Ireland (maybe too well) in seeing pastors trained to handle the word, and shepherd the flock. But in doing that we have solo leadership, and a 'weakness' in more apostolic energy in seeing the church well taught AND on mission in the world.
Thanks so much for your comment! I love these conversations and I'm really glad that we get to wrestle with these things in different contexts for God's glory!
If I can stretch the metaphor further churches planting churches can come with the fear of loosing the warmth, but maybe it’s realizing the blanket is longer than we thought. Like a knitting a blanket maybe it means more rows are added.
I like the ‘stretch’! I think in my mind we feel we ‘lose’ something when we move in a certain direction. We want a false dichotomy where to move in a certain direction inevitably moves away from another. Yet, for example, in church planting, this requires MORE of a dependence on theology and ecclesiology, rather than simply being a move towards mission.
(I also plan to reply to your email today!)
The denomination I am apart of is wrestling through both of these especially when communicating theology and ecclesiology in the positive. I think the wrestling is actually bringing us closer together because we want to value these things well.
Yeah, I think due to these 3 being treated as individual pursuits, we will want to move the others towards it's direction. For example, we want our church plants to be the fullest sense of realised ecclesiology almost from the get go. But it's our theology that guides that.
So good!
Thanks Katie for your kind words - what stood out to you?
Well, your perspective validates my experience. Serving among Christians I have seen that blanket you wrote about and seen it yanked in different directions. It’s tough to find one church that balances all three of those categories in their congregation and even more difficult to find multiple churches that want to work with other churches. I think part of the responsibility of leaders is to disciple the next generation in all three: ecclesiology, missiology, and theology. So I loved what you said. It needs to be said.
I’m not entirely sure your “blanket” of missiology, theology, and ecclesiology is more accurate or less than the framework I was taught though, so I was sort of investigating your terms and weighing them a bit. I tend to connect terms with roles or identities or giftings.
I tend to use the five fold terminology of missionary/pastor/teacher/evangelist/prophet to understand and make sense of conflict in the groups I’m in. So the “blanket” (in my head) that represents the church has five corners? If that makes sense? But then I wondered if there were -ology - endings for those corners.
I believe missionaries are gifted to see frameworks and metaphors like the “blanket” you explained. You're probably missionary gifted by God and connect to missionary stories more than anything else. They help you make sense of the world and hear God’s voice clearly. Missiology = missionary so that fits.
I believe teachers are defenders of wisdom and carriers of it so your -ology word Theology fits my framework too. I can lay them side by side and they match up. Theology = Teachers in my metaphor.
it’s actually not my metaphor. It’s charismatic/Pentecostal but they’re never good at pinning things down. They’re a missiology heavy denomination so they don't like clarifying stuff. i feel like I have to study from multiple branches and denominations to get a handle on things.
Anyway, people w/ the Pastor gifting are like the big warm belly or guts of the Church. They keep everyone fed and energized with their love. Good shepherds protect the flock. And I think that calling lines up perfectly with your metaphor too! Ecclesiology = Pastors.
But now i’m left with Prophets (or ppl spectacularly gifted to discern) and Evangelists.
The thing is I love charismatics ok? The five fold metaphor is a source of recurring interest to me, but it’s also like a puzzle. I don’t want to force it on a situation. It might not be just right. But I love it and I enjoy considering it.
You got me thinking about -ology again. In this case I started thinking about hamartiology and apologetics. Good well-balanced prophetically gifted people notice when the Body of Christ is not seeing something important. They “see” for the Body and for strangers. They warn and have a particular sense of enjoyment when they can point out problems ahead of time. Immature prophets are contentious, but mature ones are SO helpful cuz they notice povs that others might miss. So i’m wondering if their -ology could be hamartiology.
Meanwhile, evangelists do NOT activate leaders or teach people Greek. Evangelists don’t spend time shepherding or laying a feast either. They don't visit the sick Christians or the dying Christians like pastors do. Evangelists are like bards. They tell stories to people who aren’t members of the Church at all. They’re sort of like a redeemed Pied Piper. They head toward the feast and say, “Come along! I know where more food is!” but they also have to act as medics who attend to the wounded. They have to share the gospel in a way that meets the needs of outsiders and then connect those people to the Church. So maybe Apologetics = Evangelist?? I’m not sure. I might be stretching the metaphor
Oof. You’re probably regretting asking me to share. I suppose I ought to have just replied by quoting a few sentences you wrote and then said how lovely they were. I loved your metaphor. I love to meet ppl who are working (late!) on how to understand and how to pray for what the Body of Christ needs. It’s refreshing to hear that the Spirit of God is revealing truth to many people. May He bless Ireland through your prayers more and more! (Please pray for Spain too. 🥹)
I love this comment! I'm definitely not regretting your reply! ¡Claro que sí, estaré orando por España! Vivimos en México durante dos años y medio, así que será una buena oportunidad para volver a practicar mi español.
I think you've touched on something I'm really passionate about, the 5 fold model for gifts Christ gave to the church. I think if a church is seeing these 'impulses' in the body of a local church, and the unity of the Spirit is at work, then the closeness of the people means that warmth is expected under the blanket.
You're right in that the challenge comes when our 'tribes' tend to focus on certain elements, traits, models or gifts. I think we have done well in Ireland (maybe too well) in seeing pastors trained to handle the word, and shepherd the flock. But in doing that we have solo leadership, and a 'weakness' in more apostolic energy in seeing the church well taught AND on mission in the world.
Thanks so much for your comment! I love these conversations and I'm really glad that we get to wrestle with these things in different contexts for God's glory!